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Comments

Re: AATHER

[(Anonymous)]

Yes, ideally it would be that size, but I don't believe that it can be that size and still stay a small game. Adding two more teams isn't even going to get through half of the app pool. You would still end up hoping for people to drop just to see new faces eventually. People are well aware that apping requires a long wait and they are still choosing to do it. It will eventually reach a natural equilibrium point when people stop apping because they don't want to wait that long. I totally agree that there are a lot of problems with the way things are, and I don't think that adding two more teams would impact on the feel of the game or make it much harder to run games. But adding enough places to mean there are enough characters that there's always turnover would change the game completely.

Re: AATHER

[(Anonymous)]

I am very uncomfortable with the idea of waiting for the game to reach a "natural equilibrium" because it seems to make new players or players who want to app second or third characters into a problem. If we wait them out and ignore them, they'll go away on their own.

Re: AATHER

[(Anonymous)]

I'm all for fixing things and being welcoming and getting people into the game faster, but expanding is only going to do that for a couple of months and then we'll be having this discussion all over again.

Re: AATHER

[(Anonymous)]

I don't really see how we get people into the game faster without having more available slots. I'd certainly love to hear ideas for that, and maybe those could be implemented along with an expansion so this doesn't happen again in a couple of months.

Though honestly, I'm not entirely convinced that it will. You seem to be assuming unlimited growth, but that won't necessarily be the case. A lot of the apps in the pool are seconds and thirds, not new players joining the game, and those people probably aren't going to rush to app again immediately. Things might find more equilibrium when more of the people already in the game have balanced their individual lineups.

Re: AATHER

[(Anonymous)]

I've actually seen on this very community in threads where anons have mentioned that they would love to join Aather, but the queue makes it impossible. You are saying that people don't want to join the game and most of the apps are seconds and thirds, but you don't understand that there are people who would love to play in an active and amazing game, but are unable to. I see it all over the plurks of various players. Their friends think Aather sounds amazing, but the idea of waiting to get in for months on end is not feasible.

I think people are pretty balanced in the game, though. The implication that people need to "find balance" is also troubling. This should not be a matter of pointing fingers, but finding a solution so that people can get into the game.

Re: AATHER

[(Anonymous)]

But finding balance is an issue for some players. I know it's an issue for me. If I don't have the right combination of characters, it makes it difficult for me to stay interested in a game, even if I really love playing in it. I also know of at least a few other people who are having the same problem--wanting to try out new characters to make their own lineups more functional, but the pool is in the way of that.

Re: AATHER

[(Anonymous)]

It should never come up in a thread about how to fix the queue because players will begin to look at themselves and go, "Am I being judged?" Whether balancing characters is a concern or not, it's not a concern that should come up in a thread about whether or not we should add another two teams.

Re: AATHER

[(Anonymous)]

I can only guess that you have completely misinterpreted what I mean by "balance" because there's no way, for me, to get from what I said to someone else wondering if they're being judged.

The kind of balance in a lineup I mean is a person, individually, finding the right characters to maximize their enjoyment of the game. That might mean apping grumpygrump X to balance out cheerfulgirl Y or manflirt Z. Finding that balance may take some experimentation, which a large and largely stagnant queue discourages. When people find a balance to their lineup they like, they're going to generally stop apping, because they're in a good place in the game. That particular kind of growth will level off.

And I bring it up because it is entirely relevant to my experience as a player. I'm discouraged from apping experimental characters, because that will be a huge investment of time just to find out they don't stick. I don't think I'm alone in feeling this way.

I'm sorry if we've had a miscommunication, but your response makes entirely no sense to me. I can't even figure out how that could lead to anyone being judged.

Re: AATHER

[(Anonymous)]

The implication that we're this exclusive club people can't get in unless they wait for months and months just to try out if the character would work in this setting is very insulting to the people wanting to app (or waiting to play).

Re: AATHER

[(Anonymous)]

People are going to get that impression as long as we want to stay a small game. We've been trying to find a long term solution to the app pool for months and months and we haven't been able to find anything that will actually work. At this point I just don't think there is a solution to it. It's an unfortunate but necessary side-effect of the game being small. If people take offence to it that's their own problem.

Re: AATHER

[(Anonymous)]

If people take offence to it that's their own problem.

That is problematic (and very aggressive) wording to use in this situation. And honestly, as the others here have pointed out, there isn't much of a difference in numbers between 108 and 124. Nothing about the number 108 is "necessary" at this point in time. The queue is only continuing to get larger. Even when a character gets let in every other week, the queue only seems to get larger. I think this is also in part because role-play moved to DW, making Aather a much more attractive venue when people are playing there regularly. It's something to keep in mind. The conditions when it was originally decided to stay at 108 are very different from what they are now. And knowing that I am in a game with someone who sees that the queue is "necessary" or the exclusivity as something that people are wrong to feel put off by makes me feel weird. It's just a game. Why can't we make it easier for people to get in?

Re: AATHER

[(Anonymous)]

It isn't exclusivity which is driving the queue being long. I would love to have new characters and new players. It's a massive problem that people can't get into the game easily and people can't try out new characters easily. These are all things I agree with. If there was an actual solution to this problem that didn't involve completely changing the way the game functions as a game then I would be on that so fast I would be a blur. You are absolutely correct that there isn't much difference between 108 and 124 and that is exactly my point. I don't have a problem with expanding the game if we're doing it because we aren't satisfied with the current atmosphere with only twelve teams, but it isn't going to fix the queue. If it would fix the queue I would be all for it. I want it to be easier for people to get in as much as everyone else, I just don't see this as a solution, and in the absence of other solutions that means there is nothing that we can do to fix it.

If people think that we're being unwelcoming just because we want our game to function (by which I mean not having so many characters that it becomes impossible to run games and no I don't mean 124 characters, I mean enough characters that we have a decent turnover rate even after the new teams settle in and that number is a lot higher) then yes, that is their problem. The queue is a massive issue that causes people a lot of trouble and means we don't get as much fresh blood as we could, but it's a necessary evil to sustain this kind of game. It's not an indication of our attitude to new people and it shouldn't be taken as such. Especially considering the frequency with which we have debates about trying to fix it.

If I had any solutions for making it easier for people to get in I would be throwing them at the mods right this second, but I don't. That is why we can't just make it easier for people to get in.

Re: AATHER

[(Anonymous)]

You are assuming it will not fix the queue with your own biases. How do we know that? The queue is currently at 43. Minus 16 characters, we bring it down to 27. That is not ideal, but it is better. The last time I believe we got really concerned about the queue, it was around 30. This is 13 over that. I personally think 27 is a more manageable queue, but I even saw tonight in places that several teams have players absolutely not planning to drop. That cuts out seven times however many teams without players not planning to drop for a while. That limits it. If we bring in new teams, that opens things up. You are saying it will not help the queue problem, simply because Iolite and Carnelian's expansion nine months ago (I might be wrong about the time) did not change things. That was partly because, at that time, the teams were made when summer was coming. I believe that affected the queue. I highly doubt there will be another flood in the queue, and if there is, can you explain why we shouldn't consider even more teams?

Why should "necessary evil" ideals come into play when it's a role-play? Why can't Aather adjust? AJ intended for this game to be a small game, and look at how much it has ballooned. Instead of being stuck on stabilizing, why don't we focus on moving the game forward? Why can't it evolve? The game is stable. That is actually part of the problem. And honestly, you can say it is not an indication of the game's attitude to new people, but people wanting things to "stay the same" will always have unfortunate implications and side-effects.

Re: AATHER

[(Anonymous)]

There are practical reasons why roleplays set up around team and community interaction and driven by player-run oocly-coordinated games twice a week or more should stay smaller than freeform jamjars.

Re: AATHER

[(Anonymous)]

I don't want things to "stay the same" arbitrarily. All I want is for the game to remain small enough that running games is doable and it retains the small town feeling where people know each other. That's all. If it gets so big that those things aren't possible then it won't be the game that we apped into anymore.

All that's needed for the queue to still be an issue is for the rate of apps to exceed the rate of drops. Whatever maths you throw at it, if people are apping faster than they're dropping then the queue will grow. When's the last time you saw a game that wasn't dying that had the same amount of apps as drops? That's why the queue isn't going to go away.

Re: AATHER

[(Anonymous)]

new anon. I completely agree with this anon. Aather is a small game; I apped into it as a small game and I want it to remain a small game. I would absolutely love to play with new people in Aather as the game exists now, but I don't want to change the game enough to facilitate extra-fast movement through the app pool. It's not exclusivity in any sense, it's wanting the nature of the game to remain more or less where it's at a manageable level for everyone playing and modding right now.

The mods could have closed apps a long time ago and I would have thought that was a reasonable decision. They chose to continue accepting apps with the caveat that you might wait months to get your character into the game. People app knowing this. I don't think anything is wrong with that except that it seems to be creating the expectation that Aather should change to the number of apps rather than the number of apps allowed changing to suit Aather.

Re: AATHER

[(Anonymous)]

I don't think it is ever a good idea to close apps on a game that people are interested in playing in unless there is a plot reason to do so. In a game like Aather, what would have happened if a slot needed to be filled? Or in a team like Citrine, which rotated slots a lot, what would they have done when they were left without anyone? What about Turquoise near the beginning? That's not a viable solution and I don't think "closing apps" should ever come up, especially since people express interest in the game.

There is "waiting" for a month, even, and then there's waiting in a forty-three person-long line not certain of the conditions of when you will get in. You might like the smaller game, and there isn't much of a difference in these numbers. No one is expecting you to have CR with all 108 characters in the game; that certainly would not change if we went from 108 to 124 or even to 140. (The last number is theoretical; I am not saying we should go to 140 anytime soon.) Aather was created without any idea of the direction it would go on. However, its existence and playerbase met it with a heavy amount of enthusiasm. I think curbing that would be a bad idea. Opening it up a little more is never a bad thing.

Re: AATHER

[(Anonymous)]

...No. It isn't their own problem. It makes me very uncomfortable that you think that way.

Re: AATHER

[(Anonymous)]

Okay, I'm aware that saying what I said is a dick move, so I'll put it this way: Maybe there is more that we could do to show people that the reason the queue exists is because we can't think of a better way out of it rather than we don't want new people. Thinking of better ways to explain the queue and the reason it exists so that people don't get the wrong idea and think it's because we hate new people is a productive line of thought. But it isn't the existence of the queue itself which is causing that problem inherently.

da

[(Anonymous)]

wow... i hope you figure out a way, because as someone game-hunting, you guys are looking like children stomping their feet because they don't want all these new people flooding in and ruining their super secret club.

it's really offputting to read all of this.

+1

[(Anonymous)]

Every time someone explains a solution, it's quickly shot down by people not wanting change.

Re: da

[(Anonymous)]

Aather has to be careful about expanding because the entire RP revolves around extremely frequent player-run events that become harder and more stressful to run the more characters are in the game. We don't have a cap just for the sake of it or to be secret or anything, we have it because we wouldn't be able to function as an RP if no one was willing to run games. Some gamerunners are already feeling stressed even with 12 teams, and the more we increase the harder it gets. A flood of new characters literally would destroy the game structure, it's not just a case of throwing a tantrum. We basically need to work out the largest size that we can expand to while not alienating most of our gamerunners.

+1

[(Anonymous)]

As someone who really wants to join? The feeling I'm getting is "This is our club and we don't want you here!"

It's fine wanting a small game, but really. :\

+1

[(Anonymous)]

Given some of the people that play in this game, that attitude doesn't surprise me.

[(Anonymous)]

I don't read that from what anybody is saying here, honestly. If the game could immediately accept every new player that applied immediately without it impacting the playstyle of the games, I think everyone would be totally open to that. It would be pretty much ideal! But at the moment, not possible, so everyone is just trying to work out a solution where there isn't really one—it's not a matter of shooting things down for the hell of it, and while people obviously have strong feelings one way or another it's for logistical reasons and because the game is important to them, not because they don't want new people ruining their super secret club.