rpanons | Everything is under control

Everything is under control

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Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

It isn't exclusivity which is driving the queue being long. I would love to have new characters and new players. It's a massive problem that people can't get into the game easily and people can't try out new characters easily. These are all things I agree with. If there was an actual solution to this problem that didn't involve completely changing the way the game functions as a game then I would be on that so fast I would be a blur. You are absolutely correct that there isn't much difference between 108 and 124 and that is exactly my point. I don't have a problem with expanding the game if we're doing it because we aren't satisfied with the current atmosphere with only twelve teams, but it isn't going to fix the queue. If it would fix the queue I would be all for it. I want it to be easier for people to get in as much as everyone else, I just don't see this as a solution, and in the absence of other solutions that means there is nothing that we can do to fix it.

If people think that we're being unwelcoming just because we want our game to function (by which I mean not having so many characters that it becomes impossible to run games and no I don't mean 124 characters, I mean enough characters that we have a decent turnover rate even after the new teams settle in and that number is a lot higher) then yes, that is their problem. The queue is a massive issue that causes people a lot of trouble and means we don't get as much fresh blood as we could, but it's a necessary evil to sustain this kind of game. It's not an indication of our attitude to new people and it shouldn't be taken as such. Especially considering the frequency with which we have debates about trying to fix it.

If I had any solutions for making it easier for people to get in I would be throwing them at the mods right this second, but I don't. That is why we can't just make it easier for people to get in.

You are assuming it will not fix the queue with your own biases. How do we know that? The queue is currently at 43. Minus 16 characters, we bring it down to 27. That is not ideal, but it is better. The last time I believe we got really concerned about the queue, it was around 30. This is 13 over that. I personally think 27 is a more manageable queue, but I even saw tonight in places that several teams have players absolutely not planning to drop. That cuts out seven times however many teams without players not planning to drop for a while. That limits it. If we bring in new teams, that opens things up. You are saying it will not help the queue problem, simply because Iolite and Carnelian's expansion nine months ago (I might be wrong about the time) did not change things. That was partly because, at that time, the teams were made when summer was coming. I believe that affected the queue. I highly doubt there will be another flood in the queue, and if there is, can you explain why we shouldn't consider even more teams?

Why should "necessary evil" ideals come into play when it's a role-play? Why can't Aather adjust? AJ intended for this game to be a small game, and look at how much it has ballooned. Instead of being stuck on stabilizing, why don't we focus on moving the game forward? Why can't it evolve? The game is stable. That is actually part of the problem. And honestly, you can say it is not an indication of the game's attitude to new people, but people wanting things to "stay the same" will always have unfortunate implications and side-effects.

There are practical reasons why roleplays set up around team and community interaction and driven by player-run oocly-coordinated games twice a week or more should stay smaller than freeform jamjars.

All role-plays are set up around community interaction. Games like Mayfield place characters into houses and they are expected to interact with people in their houses. Aather is no different on that front than most games on DW. You are expected to talk to people and get to know them, develop, and integrate within the setting. Actually, Aather makes it easier due to the slower time compared to other games which typically move on a 1-to-1 ratio on day movement. I am not saying we should welcome in another 200 players. I just don't see why 16 more is not viable.

As for the game running, there are solutions for that, too. Ask players to not play all their characters. Double-up teams. It is rare that everyone in the game (and therefore on a team) can or will make a game anyway. When it does happen, then factors can be set. I do think there are solutions for this if they are looked for. Again, it's not adding six more teams. It's adding two.

Adding two teams is perfectly viable without ruining Aather's atmosphere, it's just that adding two teams won't fix the queue. Adding six teams probably wouldn't fix the queue, it would just delay the problem for a very long time.

You're speaking in absolutes when we just don't know.

The queue will remain a problem as long as more people are apping than dropping. Two more teams is not going to magically change the rate of apping and dropping to be equal.

There's no way to know that adding teams would help long-term, adding teams in the past hasn't helped long-term, and there are negative side effects for gamerunners right now if we added more teams. I really don't see why "you're being unduly cautious for considering the drawbacks of something that hasn't worked before because we haven't tried it at this particular moment" is a less extreme position.

But the last time we added teams was almost a year ago. It's hard to say because a lot has changed in Aather between then and now. We really shouldn't be matching up the situations.

The situation that people are trying to address, as far as I can see, is that the queue is larger than people like. That is identical to the situation that prompted the last addition of teams.

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And yet it's the only solution that would actually help instead of just telling people to Deal With It. Besides, there are other benefits from adding two more teams that are actually more appealing to me.

If you define "help" as "delay the problem for another couple of months" then sure. I'm actually not opposed to adding another couple of teams from a community point of view anyway, I can also see other benefits. I just don't want people to go into it thinking it will fix the queue.

I don't want things to "stay the same" arbitrarily. All I want is for the game to remain small enough that running games is doable and it retains the small town feeling where people know each other. That's all. If it gets so big that those things aren't possible then it won't be the game that we apped into anymore.

All that's needed for the queue to still be an issue is for the rate of apps to exceed the rate of drops. Whatever maths you throw at it, if people are apping faster than they're dropping then the queue will grow. When's the last time you saw a game that wasn't dying that had the same amount of apps as drops? That's why the queue isn't going to go away.

All I want is for the game to remain small enough that running games is doable and it retains the small town feeling where people know each other.

The number of characters that actually know everyone else is very, very limited. I highly dislike this argument because it's not valid for most of the characters in the game. As some other people pointed out, adding two teams wouldn't even ruin that.

DA

This is true. However, I've found (through threading with others and stalking threads) a lot of characters have found comfort in Aather's small size. It affects the characters' attitudes in relation to Aather. It means a lot more that if something happens within a relatively small group of characters, it will get around. Characters have a higher ability to network. People have the change to gain their own circle of CR (as in normal games), their CR's CR, their castmates' (depending on the situations, of course), and their teams'; this doesn't mean their immediate CR circle will be huge, but that does mean they know a whole lot of Aather (or have access to them) even indirectly. An increase in characters has a high likelihood of distorting that.

I remember sometime in late May or early June that there was an Aather-wide meeting regarding a single(? iirc) person who had been attacked by one on Tiger's Eye, as well as the organization against the darkness for the anniversary event. These events allowed for how well the dynamic of a small pool of characters work together, as well as allowed for a number of interesting realizations on part of the characters an the world they currently reside in and their responsibilities to it (or, their responsibilities if they want to keep themselves or their teams/whoever safe).

Just because every character is not constantly interacting with all the other characters does not mean that there is no IC merit to the "small town" pool. There are a number of jems that remain hidden but are very apparent, even in day-to-day interactions, and only occasionally are allowed to shine (as in the events I mentioned above).

The larger the game gets, the more likely it is for these advantages to be distorted.

All that said, I am, OOCly, not opposed to minor expansion if that is not the sole "solution" implemented. I think it's valid to assume that expansion may be a risky move for a number of reasons, but I also think it's valid to believe that expansion will also have a number of benefits. If there are additional ideas implemented to mollify the concerns of all parties (or as many as possible)--such as finding a solid system to make game-running easier (not just coming up with hypothetical ideas), thinking of ways to regulate the queue, addressing the playerbase's attitudes on the matter, and so on--then I believe that the merits of an organized expansion will counterbalance its potential flaws.

The queue is not an isolated event. It is affected by and affects a number of factors; thus, those other factors must also be addressed when considering the issue.

new anon. I completely agree with this anon. Aather is a small game; I apped into it as a small game and I want it to remain a small game. I would absolutely love to play with new people in Aather as the game exists now, but I don't want to change the game enough to facilitate extra-fast movement through the app pool. It's not exclusivity in any sense, it's wanting the nature of the game to remain more or less where it's at a manageable level for everyone playing and modding right now.

The mods could have closed apps a long time ago and I would have thought that was a reasonable decision. They chose to continue accepting apps with the caveat that you might wait months to get your character into the game. People app knowing this. I don't think anything is wrong with that except that it seems to be creating the expectation that Aather should change to the number of apps rather than the number of apps allowed changing to suit Aather.

I don't think it is ever a good idea to close apps on a game that people are interested in playing in unless there is a plot reason to do so. In a game like Aather, what would have happened if a slot needed to be filled? Or in a team like Citrine, which rotated slots a lot, what would they have done when they were left without anyone? What about Turquoise near the beginning? That's not a viable solution and I don't think "closing apps" should ever come up, especially since people express interest in the game.

There is "waiting" for a month, even, and then there's waiting in a forty-three person-long line not certain of the conditions of when you will get in. You might like the smaller game, and there isn't much of a difference in these numbers. No one is expecting you to have CR with all 108 characters in the game; that certainly would not change if we went from 108 to 124 or even to 140. (The last number is theoretical; I am not saying we should go to 140 anytime soon.) Aather was created without any idea of the direction it would go on. However, its existence and playerbase met it with a heavy amount of enthusiasm. I think curbing that would be a bad idea. Opening it up a little more is never a bad thing.

I wouldn't suggest closing the app pool permanently by any means, just till the queue was at a more manageable size. Ironically, this would have the exact same effect numberswise as if new teams were put into place.

If part of why you apped was because you liked the game small -- if part of why you continue to feel comfortable there and comfortable running games there relies on it continuing to be small -- yes, opening it up a little more can sometimes be a bad thing. The way these discussions inevitably go is starting to make me resent the fact that more people want to join my game because I feel like I'm being told that I'm the one whose feelings on the matter are my own problem (I agree with other anons that that was a harsh wording), which is an extremely sad commentary, since I love playing with new people.

I like Aather small and I think that it runs better on various ooc and ic levels as a smaller community. I also agree with the above!anon that opening more teams up would probably not remain a viable pallative for more than a month or two. I have a problem with trying it just to see because I do see it as one that has the potential to change elements of the game which I love and find unique to it, partly because it's so easy to find panfandom games with the potential for unlimited or less-limited expansion.

Out of curiosity, last year, were you upset when Iolite and Carnelian got added to the mix? I personally don't think that disrupted the flow of the game at all. However, the game has been at that level at a steady pace for a while. I have to wonder if it has given people the idea of don't fix what's not broken. Sure, the game is fine IC and even works fine in terms of OOC dynamics, but that doesn't solve the problems of a queue. I don't think a new set of teams will drastically alter the very state of Aather, and I feel like people are going into dramatics to suggest that is the case.

I doubt anyone is trying to undermine anyone's feelings. It's not a matter of undermining your feelings at all. I think the anons arguing against you are arguing because we think it won't hurt the game, and that people will come to find it won't be that game-changing in the long run. In the end, it will only help matters.

I would have preferred that Carnelian and Iolite not be added, yes, though I've enjoyed the characters who've played on them immensely. I don't think that anyone is going into dramatics, simply stating that there are elements of the game specifically tied to its current small size that would change if it became larger.

The queue has always been a problem no matter what we've done with the teams in the past, which is why I don't think that adding more teams will solve the problem of the queue.

I haven't seen anyone on here suggest that adding two new teams will drastically alter the very state of Aather. The argument is that adding two new teams won't fix the queue, and trying to add enough teams to fix the queue will drastically alter the very state of Aather.

Yes, thank you.

Then why is the nature of the game, IE the "smalltown community feeling," brought up at all? By bringing up these elements, it creates the implication that by adding new teams, we are introducing a potential problem to the setting. In other comments in this thread, anons have mentioned that everything IC and OOC works the way it is. These are points only made when the opposite or potential opposite is "new teams will change that."

Because if "add more teams" is the only solution people can come up with for being resentful of the queue, that's exactly what's going to change, because long-term adding two more teams hasn't fixed the queue either of the previous times it's been done.

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(Anonymous) - 2012-03-03 08:11 (UTC) - Expand

There are a lot of implications that new people wanting to play in the game is a problem everywhere in this discussion which is very problematic and insulting. That people expressing interest is a problem in itself. No one is saying the queue will be magically fixed by adding two new teams, only that it would create more available slots that might help slightly than doing nothing. The queue will never disappear, but it's only natural for the game to expand slightly after almost a year since the last time it did. Nothing will be ruined by this, just as nothing was ruined when Carnelian and Iolite were added.

I want people to actually offer suggestions to help instead of bringing up things that are irrelevant.