rpanons | The mysterious depths of his manly cave

The mysterious depths of his manly cave

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If you're just getting into this shitstain of a fandom (and I say this being balls deep in this fucking place) then don't listen to this idiot. Only go to the VN if you want more "in-depth" ~pure canon~ knowledge and have literally hours and hours to waste trawling through it. Even loving this franchise, I will tell you that reading the VN is not an enjoyable experience.

If you are new to the franchise, watch some of the animated adaptations, see if you like/can stomach the themes (it's not a cutesy franchise, there are a lot of dark themes in general) and see how deeply it sucks you in and only then decide if you hate yourself enough to trail back through the VN, but two of the three routes have already been made into series and you don't gain much more by going to a clunkily translated ecchi VN these days.

And the above anon is an idiot for another reason: Zero has all the themes of the series, the only difference is there's more wide spread suffering that isn't just confined to the girls of the series to prime them for the protag's healing dick. Zero has a lot of flaws, but the whole franchise has a lot of flaws and acting like Zero doesn't feed into FSN and FSN doesn't feed into Zero while bemoaning the beauty of the VN is neckbeard talk, plain and simple.

iunno about you, but i generally like the things i engage with? like i spend a lot of time in this fandom because i like fate. saying you hate it five separate times just makes you sound self-loathing. Fate has flaws, both the original VN and its seventeen offshoots, but I like it. It isn't a shitstain. It's good. It touches on some very effecting themes in an extremely unique way, has one of my favorite casts in all of fiction, and is full of sincere affection for every one of its characters, even when dark things are happening.

alf/z has 4 female characters and one of them has a rape backstory and dies, one of them dies five times, one of them dies, and the other one has her entire world view destroyed. f/sn has the female characters actually grow and succeed and be happy. f/sn is not a dark story about edgy characters suffering, it's a story about how people try and live their lives despite what they've been through and what's been done to them. And acting like the male cast doesn't get their lickings is just absurd on its face.

f/z is just suffering for the sake of suffering, the only character who survives and is better for the experience is Waver, and Waver's also pretty inconsequential to the plot despite how much screentime he eats up. Really, that's my issue with Fate/Zero - Urobuchi just doesn't have the affection for his cast that Nasu does. Nasu gives every single character up to and including Zouken and True Assassin sympathetic backstories and goes to the trouble of making some offshoot or another where they get to be happy. Urobuchi callously kills off major characters and barely gets into their heads.

That said, I have read the VN recently and enjoyed it. I have recommended it to people recently and they enjoyed it. It is the core of the canon. It isn't some hidden secret that should be shunned from all sight, it is the thing this canon is built on. Sure, it has flaws, but F/Z has twenty minutes of Risei and Tokiomi walking around Kirei to explain the plot, the deen adaptation of Fate is... the deen adaptation of Fate, and UBW really screws up a lot of the later fights and scenes.

If someone doesn't enjoy the VN a few hours in or something, then yeah, they can look into other parts of the canon, but I don't get why you're acting like it's the worst thing to ever be visited upon the world. It is the centerpiece of this entire thing. They should probably check that out before anything else, because it is both the best part of this series (everything else is either it through a kind of less effective lens or an offshoot of some element of it) and the main part of this series.

the most embarrassing fate fans are the self-loathing zero purists.

like the other anon said, if you're going to go on about how female characters are treated, they've got goddamn goldmines of agency and development in the vn compared to zero, where the only seem to exist as emotional pain dispensers for the male characters.

i'd argue the over-the-top sakura haters are on the same level, at least, tho

they both win gold medals in Missing The Fucking Point

I don't see any zero purists here. The points raised have been pretty balanced in pointing out the flaws in each piece of the Fate material.

I see people making suggestions to people who are new to the fandom in ways they can reasonably dip their toes in and saying "read the VN" when the OP is expressing concern about the origin content is pretty disrespectful.

Like it or not, Zero and FSN are part of the same timeline and the canon is what it is at present. People have been suggesting viewable material because it's more accessible and the easiest way to get a sense of the series' themes. The fundamental differences seem to be do you like battle themes with sunshine at the end, or fighting with darker themes. That's what causes a huge divide between Fate fans since each have different interests and the franchise does cater to both. That's just a different strokes matter.

But the OP was asking as a new fan and it's only fair to tell them what material exists and what the continuity with each is. Cool your hate boner for Zero.

parent up. this was in response to this comment: http://rpanons.dreamwidth.org/69645.html?thread=222273293#cmt222273293

which was not a neutral, level headed suggestion.

Zero has all the themes of the series, the only difference is there's more wide spread suffering that isn't just confined to the girls of the series to prime them for the protag's healing dick. Zero has a lot of flaws, but the whole franchise has a lot of flaws and acting like Zero doesn't feed into FSN and FSN doesn't feed into Zero while bemoaning the beauty of the VN is neckbeard talk, plain and simple.

because having a little girl raped with worms and used as motive dispenser for an older man obsessed with her mother is so deep, amirite

Yeah and FSN doesn't have Saber and Rin sexually assaulted either and is such a ~pure and empowering~ part of the series.

Look, if you're going to be in this fandom don't Stan for one part like its purer than another. It's all got some dark, fucked up aspects somewhere.

But hey, Saber getting raped in a pretty white dress is so much more deep, amirite?

oh my god. lmao.

the difference is, despite the dark shit that happens, saber and rin still got to have their own goddamn agency and control of their own destinies in the vn. none of the female characters got that privilege in zero, only the men. that's the whole point of dressing down the original comment shitting all over the vn and praising zero, because they got their criticism completely backwards

zero is still a good thing, despite its flaws, and so is the vn, but to mark your comparison based on how the female characters are treated, zero has way more against it. it's weird that someone makes their stance based on that.

tbh I'm not the one who is making this the marker. What I've been saying in this thread is what material is available as part of the franchise and what, imo, is more suitable for newer fans to use to test the water with.

Anons in this thread got their collective undies in a bunch because Zero dared to get mentioned and tried to trot out reading the VN as the be-all-end-all of what a brand new fan should go to. And I disagree.

I actually don't have a horse in this race as far as treatment goes, but I did have a knee-jerk reaction above because I'm a little bored of this line that "FSN is ~so progressive~ and good to its woman and Zero is fucking awful and out of step and no-one should ever touch it or acknowledge it ever omgggggg" because it's such a myopic view of FSN.

What I object to, basically, is acting like FSN is all high school cuteness and women's empowerment and overlooking its own canonical grossness in favor of screaming about how much more awful Zero is. Like, ladies, please, you're both got excessively gross bits. Chill.

http://rpanons.dreamwidth.org/69645.html?thread=222273293#cmt222273293 this is a little more than "daring to mention zero". not that the comment they replied to was any less salty, but this thread started from the linked one.

parent up every once and awhile, you'll save yourself a little embarrassment.

"I'm a little bored of this line that "FSN is ~so progressive~ and good to its woman and Zero is fucking awful and out of step and no-one should ever touch it or acknowledge it ever omgggggg" because it's such a myopic view of FSN."

This is literally the first time on RPAnons and Wankgate both where I have seen people support FSN over F/Z. Actually, the first time I've seen it on the internet outside of friends I talk to. And believe me, I spend way too much time lurking around.

You may not have a horse in this race but you sure are salty over something that has never happened except right now.

f/sn isn't super progressive but it has some decent bits and is certainly better about its female cast than f/z

you sound super butthurt that your precious zero isn't universally worshipped and its flaws are being addressed, sweetie

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The mysterious depths of his manly cave

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