rpanons | something big going down in clown town

something big going down in clown town

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anon look at current hollywood/entertainment industry output

they dont give a fuck if its better than you. they dont give a fuck if its never better than you.

they give a fuck that they can get good enough and they dont have to pay a human to do it

and verifiably, current AI output is "good enough" by most standards

You can't excuse piracy REGARDLESS OF AUTHORIAL CONSENT and then abhor ai BECAUSE OF AUTHORIAL CONSENT. You dim fuck.

They are both stealing IP from the artist. Piracy is much more direct about it. You just like pirating shit so you've invented a moral justification for why it's okay when you do it because you're not a rich exec (as if poor people don't also use AI)

except the reasons i have are not invented, piracy has had verifiable impact on digital content preservation AND consumer rights

you just think they are because you want to keep using ai for icons and game art without feeling bad about it causing immeasurably more damage than any piracy ever has without any benefits to outweigh it

this requires a nuanced perspective and, quite simply, you dont have one and are resistant to developing one

piracy doesn't steal anything though, you can still buy the original elsewhere. it doesn't take anything from you because it was never bought from you in the first place. YOU are needed for piracy to even happen.

ai gens take your work, vomits on it, and makes YOU useless. YOU, the artist, are not needed. piracy will always need people by its very nature. ai doesn't once it's trained enough, and it's already at that point RIGHT NOW.

if authorial consent is so important to you then maybe you're in the wrong line of work, and i mean that seriously.

ai is not going to be "better" than you; it isn't alive. it doesn't understand art beyond color patterns.

an important point that bears repeating: generative content is extremely bad for all the reasons above, but it's not capable of fully replacing actual good content because it doesn't, and cannot, and never will, understand what "good" content is, because it's a set of parameters with a table. a bunch of companies are going to learn this the hard way — some already have — when they try to replace humans with AI, receive unusable shit in turn, and have to task their remaining humans with fixing the unusable shit on top of their normal jobs.

anecdata, but for example i have a friend in corporate (writing job, not art), whose exec board decided to cut some jobs and replace with AI. since the AI was beyond inadequate for corporate standards, the workload of the people still there shot through the roof...so they quit. literally every person on the team found another job, and the corp had to outsource that whole team to a 3rd party creation team at much greater expense with slower turnaround and less control. they wound up begging some of the old workers to come back at significantly higher pay.

it's absolutely valid to be worried about the ramifications of AI, but it literally isn't capable of replacing human judgment, which is critical.

artist anon here: the ayrt isn't me. i stopped answering here once the other anon said artists have no legal rights of ownership over their art.

i love hearing stories like this

wiggles hand? i get why (best believe i was horse laughing when i got the whole story), but unfortunately it's also a reminder that there are way too many useless MBA c-suite types who've never had to engage in the actual work they're trying to maximize

it's fun to hear about them embarrassing themselves and wasting money and having to grovel to get workers back, but at the end of the day, guess how many board members lost their ferraris over the debacle, ykwim

artist anon: i know it's irrational, and like the other anon said, probably fueled by some additional insecurities. but the reality is that AI is being trained to imitate styles, and even though it will never have the human ability to inject emotion and express an idea that hasn't been fed to it, i think of just even reaching an age or sickness where i can no longer paint a red ball in my typical style, because my hands or sight fail me. and someone else can just input 'draw red ball in the style of [anon]' and AI could have been perfected enough by that point and trained on enough of my art data that it... can. do what i no longer can but once could.

like i said, it's irrational. but that does make me, personally, feel very inadequate about AI, on a very gut-deep level beyond even lost revenue.

anon, youre being called a capitalist shill because youre largely siding with and defending huge corporations who regularly kill and pull access to media for financial gain and to secure profit margins over people who largely preserve art and culture for future access. "authorial consent" has had next to nothing to do with recent events where this has happened, and it has actually gone against the consent of the artists who have done the work. that's capitalist shill behaviour

sidebar but this is a wild take to bring into a hobby where we take other people's characters and write about them doing filthy sodomy for fun and makes it seem as though you prioritize what impacts you right this second over long-term threats and concerns

Here's a few more, anon:

https://www.flickr.com/

https://www.stockvault.net/

https://getdrawings.com/

https://archive.org/details/image

https://www.freeimages.com/

https://stocksnap.io/

don't think akira toriyama (rip) intended for vegeta to suck dean winchester's dick but here we are

anon, i'm sorry, but piracy did not start off and is not being carried out right now with an intent to preserve content. if you genuinely believe we artists are not impacted by it, i'm sorry to say that we are. it's not just big monolithic companies, it is the little guys too. i mentioned higher up in the thread, i've had to deal with people stealing my art, so of course i'll say author consent does matter. speaking honestly: the last item that you pirated, if you have ever done so, was it because there was no other existing way to enjoy this art at cost, or was it because there were alternatives, but they involved expense or inconvenience?

for your sidebar: i don't think us doing derivative content that will never really impact the initial art (movie, show, manga) can be equated with pirating that work, in its original content. my portrayal of scooby doo's horror jamjar adventures will never be the same experience as the cartoon. is it unethical in some way? bottom line, yes. i make a point of never playing from canons whose authors have spoken out against fanfiction or fanworks, but i'll be first to admit i'm unethical in that i don't bother reaching out to the creators of the content i rp from who haven't communicated a view on that, to ask if rp is okay.

if you're really hardlining over this ethics argument then you shouldn't be rping at all, you're just a hypocrite who doesn't want to admit you're wrong atp

when will execs learn to simulate human judgment tho

gonna be real with you

the more you yap about this, the more convinced i am that you just are not going to see the big picture until you're tangibly affected by this

yes, the last thing I pirated was something that i would otherwise not have access to. it was an ancient lost media Sega game called sacred pools that was never released and was only recently discovered in an unfinished state. I streamed it for my friends and showed more people more of the game than would have ever been able to and we were able to collectively enjoy it

im going to ask you this again, and im also going to ask you to answer honestly: did the work people put into this game deserve to be erased because Sega executives thought it'd be embarrassing? by extension, would it be more wrong to allow the wile e coyote movie people poured weeks of work and passion into to rot unseen than steal it from people who have more money than ethics themselves? is the method of recovering and preserving it to be condemned because it had to be stolen and couldn't be profited from? are you able to pry away what you think is right from what makes money for people?

you gave me an honest answer, so i'll respond in kind: emotionally, having your work erased blows. i know few artists who can fully distance themselves from their work, though some manage that divide.

however, if you sell your full rights, you are willingly entering a contract whereby you know unfortunately the art no longer belongs to you at that point. erasure or alteration in a way you feel no longer represents you or your artistic visions are the absolutely worst outcomes, but they are something that you give active consent to might happen. likewise, a project you worked on might never take off, and your work is buried and you can't even put the concept toward something else, and that stings to - but it's still something you knowingly consent to.

piracy doesn't even get that much consent from you.

it keeps coming down to: do you think the survival of the work trumps the consent of the people who worked on it? to you, it seems like that answer is yes. to me, it isn't, and it's about the people.

as somebody who has worked hard on multiple projects that never saw the light of day and/or have been pulled, I appreciate your commitment to this debate. I didn't consent to have my work disappeared and I wish it had been acquired by other means so that, if for no other reason, I could use it in my portfolio.

that shit has hurt me as a professional artist way, way more than anyone pirating the shows that did make it out there.

also another artist who no longer has access to certain works i've done, and 100% i wish someone kept a copy i could keep for myself too.

survival of the work trumps the consent of the people who worked on it

you're acting like the 'consent of the people who worked on it' is a monolith though. if I worked on an animated superhero comedy ideated and voiced by [comedian], and then [comedian] decides it sucked and doesn't want it to exist anymore, why does [comedian's] opinion override the entire production crew who spent months of our lives making the thing exist, etc

if one single person made the piece of media then we can argue about the ethics of keeping it around when they want it buried, but you just cannot in good faith make that argument about any kind of film or animation property created by a team. you are effectively just siding with highest-ranking person in the room who decided it should go away.

there is actually a lot of info out there that points to unavailability or unaffordability as the reason people pirate, not because "fuck you if it's free i'll take it"

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0167268123000793
https://www.fastcompany.com/91009644/visits-to-piracy-websites-have-increased-12-in-the-last-four-years
https://www.techdirt.com/2024/01/10/piracy-is-surging-again-because-streaming-execs-ignored-the-lessons-of-the-past/

personally, i haven't pirated anything since i got enough disposable income to do whatever, because buying things legally is less hassle for better quality. i don't remember if one of those links mentioned it, but when spotify debuted music piracy plummeted, because there was a cheap and easy way to find so much of it in one place (same with itunes, back in the day). obviously there's a subset of people who pirate because they can (who remembers that picture of kanye obviously torrenting something he could afford?), but iirc they're not the majority. in a world where everyone who pirates = everyone's just being a cheapskate, yeah, you're losing money, but it's way more accurate to say that you're either gaining a viewer, who might spread the word to paying friends, or losing nothing because unavailable/unaffordable. if someone can't afford to spend $13 on a paperback or $4 on a comic book, that ain't what they're saving their slim income for, guaranteed.

but you're ignoring the fact that everyone in the team would have agreed to the same kind of contract, which allows for erasing or calling off the project. you typically consent to the possibility of that when you transfer rights.

if your or any other anon's contract does not explicitly state you give full rights (including erasure and calling off a project) to the employer or studio, you absolutely have legal standing to get your work back. it's not a situation i've ever faced, as most of my employers had ironclad contracts, but if it has happened to anyone, it's more than ethics at that point, it's something you're legally entitled to pursue.

just because the law says it's legal doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. and as someone who has faced this exact situation, getting my work deleted from existence is really fucking unethical to me, because surprise, most of the time we never even get the chance to ask for copies of our work.

contracts don't erase the fact that i created it. that's literally not how authorship works. i'm still the creator even if i'm not the one making money off it - which seems like your biggest sticking point, whether or not you personally are making money off however your art is used.

either learn to accept that art is never just about your personal ownership or change careers. you might be much happier in life if you do.

well yes, that's factually correct, but it doesn't really account for 'artists' consent' being a nebulous thing

you might sign the ironclad contract so you can get work and feed yourself, which is generally the only way to do so as an industry professional, but that doesn't mean you're not still an artist on the thing. your hands are tied, because the other option is to not sign the contract and not work.

does the 'artists' consent' only extend to the executive producers/showrunners/idea guys? in the philosophical sense, I mean, because we already know that legally the answer is yes

maybe they can train an AI assistant for that

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something big going down in clown town

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