rpanons | something big going down in clown town

something big going down in clown town

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that may have been true in pre-internet times but not anymore, when we have media companies themselves actively deleting entire catalogues from existence as tax write-offs. that's infinitely and more immediately damaging to the industry because that's actual media being destroyed simply for not meeting arbitrary metrics of monetary value.

you seem to be ignoring artist consent. i'm going to assume you don't know how art contracts work, skip if you do: there are two overarching types, one that allows you to retain rights, but you effectively allow a publisher to use the art you create for a specific purpose and in a specific way, with specified provisions of alteration (ex: a pikachu sketch i allow you to color blue and print on 100 tshirts you sell). at that point, you, the buyer, cannot erase my sketch, because i retain rights to it. another type of contract, much more expensive, gives you the full rights to my pikachu sketch, at which point you can edit, alter and publish this as you please - and yes, you can also 'erase' it (often, by sueing me if i make it available).

under both of these situations, the consent of the person holding full rights to the image (whether the artist retaining it or the buyer) is required to publish or erase the art. piracy, meanwhile, doesn't care about consent. art 'preserved' through piracy is prioritizing the preservation of the inanimate art over the consent of the people who made it or sold it. how is that ethical?

you seem to be ignoring literally everything happening around you in the modern ecosystem

netflix has been stripping shit hundreds of people worked hard on for underperforming. once they do that, its gone if someone doesnt steal it to preserve it. what about all the people who put work into that who arent streaming platform execs who are worried they wont be able to afford their fifth yacht? what if they want their work preserved?

again, do they deserve to have it erased just because it has to be stolen from quadrillionaires to be preserved?

dude, stop deflecting. i asked you plainly: how is it ethical to ignore artist consent by stealing their work to preserve it?

when you sign up to netflix or amazon kindle, you know as a consumer the state of play: that netflix reserves the right to make available or remove titles. this is why you pay a fractional amount for your subscription that is no where equal to the individual dvd amount of every movie you can or do watch. you do not own movies and shows on netflix, you own access to a catalogue of movies and shows that netflix curates, subject to change. if you didn't understand that, review your netflix contract.

and this netflix tangent is irrelevant, because it's not the question originally posed: how is theft an ethical way to preserve content, if it violates the consent of the content creator?

artist here: that's what legal remedies are for. and yes it sucks when piracy impacts your livelihood badly enough but here's the thing, if you're famous enough to have your work pirated, you're not the one losing money. it's your publisher. you'll always get paid upfront for the bulk of your work unless you're incredibly bad at negotiating terms or picking projects.

the hard truth is unless you're household level famous you're never getting pirated anyway and any money you lose is going to be from royalty checks after you've been paid upfront. you might lose maybe 200$ a year off your licencing payout because of piracy. the college kid depending on private commissions for extra income is going to lose much more in value when their 5 regular clients go for free ai art instead of paying him 50$ a month for furry art.

megacorps are disrespecting the consent of artists who want to have their work preserved and respected every day but you're still deepthroating executive boot so I don't think you care as much as you say you do, is all

you're asking for a concise answer to the question of who owns art and quite frankly, i think nobody should own art

like sorry, you're in the collaborative fanfic hobby. you're probably also using someone's art contrary to their consent

also an artist: i think you know well enough that the fee of legal remedies often makes it not worth the battle. i've had stuff picked up by a bullshit fast fashion producer and had to fight them over it, and it was a hassle.

but the thing is, the anon i was responding to kept making it seem as if you're doing artists a favor by pirating the work and archiving it online. you might be, potentially, but you are definitely doing is violating the consent of artists by stealing their work, and as this entire thread hinges on an ethical debate, i'm surprised it needs saying that theft isn't ethical.

...nobody should own art? are you kidding me? so you think the art exists outside of me?

holy shit, no wonder you're here championing piracy, if you think i, the artist, shouldn't own my art.

here's a proper deflection: why is digital piracy illegal but libraries and resale sites not?

if you have an answer that doesn't boil down to sales i'd like to hear it, because i sincerely doubt dollar stores and libraries are going through their catalogues to throw out media because the artist/company/whatever doesn't want it to exist anymore.

and what's your solution to that? someone had to have bought a legal version in the first place for an illegal copy to exist. are projected sales considered actual sales? if i said my art is worth 10mil$ but i only sold 10$ am i owed the rest?

you're being a capitalist shill a bit, anon.

unironically yes

once you release the art, it exists outside of you

that's part of the point of art. it becomes transformed by other people experiencing it

bro someone in this thread already disproved that point also, just admit you're wrong on this one.

because libraries are providing a product that was fairly procured to a limited audience for an educational/informative purpose. you too can loan out your book to a friend and it'd be fine, because you bought the product and you're still keeping its distribution to a small group. you didn't buy a scan of a book that you're making available to hundreds of people by opening it up to an audience you can't control through piracy.

so if i sculpt a statue in my basement, do you think it's ok for someone to come in through the door and steal it? since i don't own it?

if you think you can control who views your work at all you've misunderstood art fundamentally

the problem with ethics unfortunately is it's dictated by law, and often the law itself is not ethical or even moral. is it ethical for wb/disney to destroy finished movies, often against the creative team's wishes, for tax writeoffs? it's certainly legal, and they're within their rights to do so. but do you really think it's ethical?

a lot of these big piracy and IP protection laws are often for the big corps and estates' benefit. it's also why small artists have a shit time defending our own work. piracy as theft being unethical is a moot argument anyway because the way the industy works these days, it's unfortunately one of the few ways certain media can even exist anymore.

imo piracy is the symptom, not the problem.

i said when you release the art nobody should own it, as I'm nobody should have the right to erase it completely

if you release the sculpture to the public, I think you should not have legal rights to smash people's phones if they say take a picture of it, barring material or structural reasons why the art can't be photographed

genuinely think it's more that they cannot stretch their brain enough to wrap around a situation that is not about them and are thus incidentally coming off like a capitalist shill

the whole point of piracy is that you don't pay for it, though.

also calling it product kind of shows what you think of art in itself, so i think this is not gonna go anywhere with you.

i'm with you, but we legitimately have people in this thread saying we don't own our art and that we're capitalist shills for also caring about being paid for it. this is such a wild thread to me.

i call it (work) product, (work) piece, or art so we don't get caught up in the nitty gritty of whether it's sculpture, painting, photography or film, which are each governed by their own copyright jurisdictions. if you prefer we call it the larvae of the giant spaghetti monster, i'm fine to call it that.

that's the thing though: authorship in art doesn't give you absolute control over it. the other anons are right, once you put that out there, it's not just yours anymore. it's very naive to think otherwise.

and if you're really worried about getting paid for your art you should be more worried about the increasing disruption of the industry that ai art is causing than whether or not some nerds in iowa are downloading illegal copies of your work.

Then what's wrong with AI exactly? Can't have it both ways

i'm not talking about absolute control, but about legal rights.

i've said a few times now that AI is a piece of shit, but i can agree with that stance and not try to excuse piracy. for me, they are both individual and separate unethical practices.

no one asked for my existential dread, but here we go: AI worries me on an even more visceral level, because i hope to grow old in this industry. by the time i retire, that means there will be hundreds of my pieces out there, which can be mined for likeness and style. and when i'm old and my sight's wonky and my hand trembles too much, fucking AI might be able to reproduce my own style better than i physically can, and that disgusts me. the idea that a machine could become better at being me than i am is terrifying, and i hope AI is brought down.

you can only think plagiarism is the same thing as piracy if you're being obtuse on purpose or you're dumb

i mean this with absolute kindness: you may have deeper insecurities that isn't just about your art. ai is not going to be "better" than you; it isn't alive. it doesn't understand art beyond color patterns.

that's fair about piracy, though. i think it's a necessary evil, but you're valid in thinking otherwise too. i just don't think it's equal to ai art in terms of damage caused.

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something big going down in clown town

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