rpanons | Lesbian sex leads me to salvation every day

Lesbian sex leads me to salvation every day

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Well the two situations are pretty different. When Phoenix is asking about it Kristoph has no idea how much he actually knows and he's not willing to tell him any more. But in court Apollo tells everything to Kristoph first. And Kristoph has no real reason to hide it any longer since, as far as he knows, he can't be caught since there's no evidence. He was just gloating and rubbing it in. I'd say that game-wise the black locks were used to emphasize how he couldn't be cornered with the usual methods, i.e. evidence and to prevent Phoenix/the player from getting his motive completely spelled out before the trial. Also game-wise it simply doesn't feel like something that's to be explored in the future, in the end both the game and the characters treat it as the case being closed.

And I wouldn't call his motive sheer pettiness. It gets a bit into reading between the lines territory, but I think it was less about being petty for Zak rejecting him and more about Zak rejecting him and choosing Phoenix instead. I think it's a combination of "Whoever defended Zak in court successfully would be famous beyond belief." and "Phoenix Wright...? A second rate attorney who relies on luck and bluffs! He dismissed me... and went with that pitiful excuse for a man?". So Kristoph wanted to be famous and he hated Phoenix who he saw as an inferior lawyer. They were both (presumably) rookie lawyers of about the same age, but through the original trilogy Phoenix defeats a number of important figures in the legal world and takes part in many other high profile cases and becomes famous. And, unlike the most, Kristoph recognizes that it's through bluffing and luck. (Which, let's be real, is extremely accurate with Phoenix. Think about how impossible most cases seem at the beginning and how all those last minute pieces of evidence turn the whole thing around.) And when the whole Gramarye incident happens he thinks it's finally his time to shine... only for Zak Gramarye to turn him down over a game of poker and choose, of all people, Phoenix instead. An universal slap in the face saying that Kristoph isn't going to get the chance he (probably thinks he) deserves and Phoenix getting yet another chance Kristoph doesn't think he deserves.

I mean of course this is something that could potentially be covered if they dwelled more into Kristoph's past and stuff (since he obviously had something against Phoenix from the very beginning) but I don't personally think there's something completely new behind his motive. And unless Takumi is involved I sure don't want to hear a thing about it, especially since I can't really see it as something Kristoph would be fully unconscious about.

...you can't tell that Kristoph is my fav character and I've spent far too much time thinking about this kind of stuff, can you?

Yeeeah that's a little too much reading between the lines for me, especially given Kristoph's title as "The Coolest Defense in the West." He's obviously built up a reputation without any on-screen high profile cases (that we know of). With how tightly he keeps a hold on everyone and their actions, it seems unlikely that "celebrity fame" would ever be a motivation to him. A classy reputation, sure, but not famous in the spotlight bathing way Klavier is. And speaking of, given that he had the evidence forged from the start and knew his brother was going to be prosecuting, I'd wager Kristoph was more concerned about remaining the superior Gavin in court.

Now being mad that a hack like Phoenix got the job over him? That still adds up. I would not be a little surprised if there were more defense attorneys out there like Kristoph that are completely appalled that Phoenix is in their ranks. Everyone on the board didn't even give him a chance when they voted him out of the club, after all.

There's also the murder of Zak, and that's always bothered me. Yeah, Kristoph wanted to shut everyone up about the incident, but there is absolutely no way Zak could have known Kristoph had forged evidence for the trial. Like, unless I'm missing something (it's been a while since I played), Zak/Shadi would have had no way of knowing what Kristoph was up to, aside getting a bad feeling from their game of poker. For Kristoph to pull such a huge, uncharacteristically risky move and kill Zak (after only completely randomly realizing it was Zak) and without proper planning, there had to be something else going on there besides "and then this asshole fired me for Phoenix fucking Wright."

But that said, hell I could buy your interpretation. Makes more sense than anything the AAI team would drum up (his motive would be his parents whom we've never met before who are now suddenly dead and somehow essential to the overaching international spy plot or some shit).

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with Kristoph being your fave, I'm glad to see some AJ love up in here.

Well the thing about that is that we know that Kristoph is the Coolest Defense in the West... during the time AJ takes place in. He took part in the council that voted on Phoenix's fate, but otherwise we don't really know much about how he was faring 7 years earlier. If he was already recognized as the best lawyer in town would he really care about Phoenix that much? I personally have a hard time seeing Klavier as any sort of a real motivation for Kristoph, especially since the game brings up the fame aspect and Kristoph himself doesn't really say anything relating to beating Klavier. I've always seen the forgery as more of a Kristoph examining the case and the evidence and reading ahead (since he proves himself to be a pretty good lawyer and has a lot of focus on the actual evidence and such) enough to realize that he might lose the case. So he forged the diary page to ensure victory if needed.

And actually Zak is one of the few people who could absolutely know that Kristoph had forged the diary page, because Zak himself ripped off the original page containing Magnifi Gramarye's will. So when the fake page shows up Zak would instantly know that it's made by someone who had access to the diary after he ripped the page off. It would be more like "would Kristoph know that Zak would know" thing, but considering how paranoid he is he probably wouldn't want to leave it up to chance.

...which, now that I think about it, makes forging the diary page absolutely stupid since if Kristoph had actually defended Zak and Zak had showed the real diary page then Kristoph would have been in a world of trouble. Maybe he thought that being able to get a not guilty verdict would keep Zak quiet long enough so that he could kill him off just in case he happened to actually know something about the real page or something.

Yeah, the title is a present day thing, but I feel like if Kristoph was struggling for fame/recognition seven years prior, we would have been given a hint about that. Both Klavier and Kristoph clearly come from well off backgrounds (given the former's prodigy status, ability to study abroad, etc), and Kristoph must have been at least a semi-established defense attorney back then. Going back to Klavier, he's the one that's excited to be facing off against Kristoph as his debut! (Unrelated, and coincidentally, Klavier also had the least to lose here--beat/exposes legendary Phoenix Wright, gains fame! Lose to his older brother, no loss in rep, but lots of coverage due to a brother vs brother trial.) I'm not saying Kristoph's desire was to curbstomp his brother, but I'm sure he absolutely would not be entirely gracious if he lost, either. Like you said though, I think he forged the page as insurance, as I highly doubt Kristoph's career is built entirely off forgeries. He's got a lot of skill, and I'm willing to bet he won many of his cases legitimately.

And ooooh shoot, that's right! I forgot Zak took it, haha. But that's even less reason to kill him on sight, Zak had no proof at the time that Kristoph had forged the letter and given it to Phoenix. So Kristoph's urgency to silence him is still oddly out of place.

. . .but yeah, that itself is a huge plothole. Kind of almost sabotaged yourself, Kristoph.

With Kristoph there's a lot of stuff about how he values the way law and the evidence work, so I think it ties into that. Like, he probably was a good lawyer even when starting out, but when you get 10/10 for doing what's expected and the other guy gets 15+/10 for cross-examining a parrot and waving a metal detector at the most famous prosecutor around it's probably obvious who's going to get more press coverage/fame/is seen as the better attorney of the two by the public. Phoenix kept doing things that are completely against everything Kristoph stands for and got rewarded for it again and again. I don't think Kristoph was a complete no name back then, but was likely overshadowed by Phoenix. Because well, who wouldn't when most of his cases were just that big and crazy.

And well though, Kristoph didn't know that Zak had the page. So maybe it was a risk that he was willing to take when he ordered the forgery if he assumed that he had no other way to win the case. Which was probably the situation, seeing how things were turning out for Phoenix before he presented the page. And when it comes to giving Zak the bottle treatment it was probably more because Zak was one of the few people who knew of Kristoph's involvement in the Gramarye case at all since no paperwork of it remained. So it was more about silencing someone who could connect him to it at all. He had been stalking everyone involved for seven long years and Zak was the only loose cannon left and he didn't know when, or if, he would ever show up again. Zak probably wouldn't suddenly run around revealing the truth to everyone... but if he did then everything could be over for Kristoph. And man does that guy hate the sheer possibility of something bad ever happening.

Oh, and I definitely think that's the only forgery Kristoph ever used. If he was planning on using forgeries in the future he wouldn't try kill off the best forger around after only one job. And the game would've probably implied something along those lines if that had been the case. Because the forger bodies would sure pile up quick if he kept doing what he tried with the Mishams...

Eh, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that front then, if only because Kristoph is not very subtle when he's being passive aggressive. He opted to keep Phoenix close solely to keep an eye on him and his actions, and had people known beforehand that Kristoph envied/hated Phoenix (and they would surely notice), it would come off as very odd for him to suddenly play the role as friend to him.

Also, don't forget, despite how much coverage Phoenix got, aside from the Judge and the prosecutors he won over, he's very much seen as a joke in-universe (up til T&T and Dual Destinies, at least). Every prosecutor that pops up is ready to take him down/call him out for what he is. Hell, even in T&T, I'm willing to bet most of that case was kept hush hush because it was so ridiculously supernatural. The biggest cases that likely drew attention to Phoenix were those involving von Karma, Gant, and Engarde. The latter probably got the most public attention because lol celebrities and kidnapping. But anyway my point is yeah, Phoenix was a big shot, but not really a threat to Kristoph in the long run.

RE for Zak, again, it's just a little too sloppy for me to believe that's all there is to it. After all, while Kristoph planned for Vera to die via nail polish (or the stamp, I forget which), that sure took its sweet time, and he didn't try to force it. Don't get me wrong, he did what he could in his impulsiveness to off Zak, but it's just so contrasting to the rest of his careful actions, I wouldn't doubt that there was another motive behind things, and sadly we'll never get to see what it is.

Yeah, I'll have to disagree on that. I feel that Kristoph is often seen as more obvious of a villain than he actually is because he gets revealed so early on in the game. He isn't as seething with passive agressiveness at the beginning as he is after his involvement in the case is revealed and he realizes it was all according to Phoenix's keikaku. And he managed to keep everyone in pretty much the dark for seven years. If Klavier had known that Kristoph absolutely despised Phoenix then wouldn't he have started to doubt Kristoph far earlier?

And Kristoph also justifies standing up and befriending Phoenix, who he hadn't met before the Gramarye aftermath, with "It was my brother who was responsible for putting you in that position, after all." So even if people knew he had disliked him it could be played up as him realizing Phoenix isn't that bad of a person and feeling bad for him etc. It would fit the gentlemanly character he keeps up. Likewise, as a gentleman he wouldn't probably let his disdain show so obviously.

The nail polish vas for Vera and the stamp was for Drew. But the difference between them and Zak is that the Mishams didn't know Kristoph's identity. Of course they knew a lot of potentially dangerous things, but those couldn't be tied to Kristoph immediately. And even when the stamp originally failed the nail polish trap would still be there. He could afford to let them live longer with what they knew. And the reason for the sloppy way he killed Zak is still that he was in a hurry. He saw Zak randomly after seven years and had no idea if he might ever see him again, he simply didn't have any time to plan anything better. Zak's knowledge of Kristoph's involvement was far more dangerous than the Mishams knowing someone ordered a forgery. Zak telling someone just "Hey Kristoph Gavin was my lawyer!" was enough to tie him into the whole forgery mess all over again.

Oh, and I think I kinda realized/remembered why I keep coming back to Phoenix being a key person in Kristoph's motive. In AJ Phoenix is constantly the person Kristoph has the most anger towards, even in his final breakdown he screams Phoenix's name. And the whole game seems to revolve around the weird relationship the two had, so to me it works out thematically. Kind of like the whole Dahlia - Mia/the Fey family thing in T&T.

That's the thing though, Zak had zero idea Kristoph even had a forgery prepared. No one did, and it's not even proven Kristoph is responsible for it til the last present-day case. If Kristoph had remained Zak's lawyer? Yeah, I can see the worry, but that isn't the case. As far as everyone knew, Zak included, Phoenix alone was responsible for the forgery. And if we're going that far, wouldn't it have made more sense for Kristoph to kill Trucy? She was the one that handed the forgery over to him. Kristoph being Zak's previous lawyer (or rather, his considered lawyer) is zero basis for anyone to suspect him of a thing.

Also don't forget, Kristoph is the one who warned Klavier about Phoenix. Really, he should have known something was up then, especially with Kristoph suddenly feeling pity for phoenix. It's a wonder Klavier never questioned him for seven years.

Anyway, I 100% agree that Phoenix was the key in Kristoph's motive, I'd just like to know if there's more to it than him stealing Kristoph's thunder, because that alone is a flimsy premise for a grudge that deep, and the rest of the facts don't add up.

Oh, that's simple. Phoenix became Zak's lawyer just a day before the trial. He had no time to get the forgery done himself. That's how they ultimately prove his innocence at the end of AJ. Most people didn't know that until the trial, but Zak was one of the few who would because, well, he was there when he hired Phoenix.

Ah, true, though there was still nothing Zak could have said outside of "he used to be my lawyer" that could have condemned Kristoph. Really, leaving him alive would have been the better option, since he was essentially "guilty" due to running away and practically didn't exist anymore, but what can you do.

AJ is so full of unanswered questions and plotholes though, we can all run with whatever interpretations we please until proven otherwise (and we won't be. Because Capcom hates game four).

Maybe it wasn't so much Kristoph felt a need to get rid of Zak, but it was more meant as revenge against Zak and Phoenix. Kill Zak for what he did in the past in such a way that Phoenix would be the suspect and then defend Phoenix to ensure Phoenix gets a guilty. Zak is dead, Phoenix gets a death sentence for a crime he didn't commit and no one finds out Kristoph did it. Perfect revenge on the two of them.

It makes sense when you consider the fact that after the mess with the forgery, Kristoph purposely made it look like he was Phoenix's ally. Why bother to befriend Phoenix when it would have been perfectly normal to turn his back on the now former defense attorney like everyone who wasn't his friends did. He obviously wanted to gain Phoenix's trust and truly had little reason to. It actually has a lot in common with what Von Karma did to get revenge on Edgeworth as far as how things were carried out, so it wouldn't be a surprise if Kristoph's plan was very similar to Von Karma's.

The only kink in that is that he clearly was gunning to pin the blame on Olga, though. Or at the very least, that's what he was steering Apollo to do. Of course he knew she didn't do it, but he didn't care. He didn't try to spin the crime back on Phoenix until Phoenix begin to egg Apollo on and imply that there was another person at the scene of the crime.

Otherwise, if he really wanted Phoenix to get the guilty verdict, I doubt he would have been as helpful as he was during the trial (like other anon pointed out, Kristoph really does seem like a good, if passive aggressive imo, mentor at first, and acts as if he's genuinely on your side). It's all very weird overall.

There's a simple enough explanation for it. Even if he wants to ensure Phoenix is found guilty, he also doesn't want to lose the reputation his law office has because his rookie screwed it. It would reflect poorly upon Kristoph since it is his office and he was there providing counsel to his rookie. No one would expect Apollo to perform well the first time, but they would expect Kristoph to make sure Apollo didn't miss anything obvious. And with the type of crime that was, a closed room murder, the obvious tactic is to pin the blame on the witness.

Don't forget, Apollo had trouble with Olga's testimony and didn't catch on that she was lying. Phoenix pointed that fact out, not Kristoph. Kristoph may have suggested to pin it on Olga, but he sure didn't help to make that stick. In fact, there was a huge hole in Olga's testimony, she said little about the murder itself, she didn't explain where she was when Phoenix called the police, and didn't explain why Phoenix called and she didn't since the sensible action for a murderer would be to flee the scene, not call the cops. Apollo missing that is understandable, it was his first trial and he was seriously nervous. Kristoph, however, lacks that excuse. He's a seasoned defense attorney who should know that those three missing things makes her look really suspicious and if he was really making an effort to find his supposed friend not guilty, then he should have mentioned that to Apollo.

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