rpanons | WHAT ANIME

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you might want to throw up spoiler warnings for that just saying because that was a huge reveal

it’s also kind of unfair to say that it is his fault although he was indirectly responsible by giving up his original body which set it up for someone else to move in. there was no way for him to think that would happen, since everyone was surprised when that turned out to be the case in babylonia. he did recognize that he was responsible and da vinci said he poured every moment into trying to stop the future he’d seen right as he was becoming human. so it’s not like he could really live out his life as a human that he wished for, which i find tragic.

I'm not talking about that lol, that's nothing. the fact that he created Goetia and could see what Goetia was going to do, yet let it happen, is his sin.

Him trading his life to undo almost destroying the world is the least he could do.

I thought the whole point was that he didn't foresee the incineration of humanity until he wished to be human, which is why he panicked and threw himself into trying to fix things instead of living a normal life like he wanted.

This is correct. Whatever the reason behind it he wasn't aware of Goetia's plan until after he and Marisbury won the HGW in 2005.

There's some room to argue that he did know it was going to happen but didn't give a shit because of Solomon's emotionless state. But 1) that hasn't even remotely been confirmed, and 2) the text more heavily implies that he just didn't know. And it's not like Fate has never shied away from highlighting morally grey or straight out assholey behavior from protagonists or neutral characters before so I doubt they'd start now.

It has to do with Lev's suicide. In Clocktower 2015, Lev has three personalities: the researcher of the past, the observer of the present, the keeper of the future. One of them, "Mr. Flauros" (the future keeper), commits suicide to stop his full transformation to the pillar demon god and thwart the incineration. According to Nasu's Bamboo journal, one pillar demon wasn't completely convinced of Goetia's plan and considering which one thwarts it, it's Flaurous who rebels before anyone so it's probably him. In FGO, this doesn't happen.

"You're overlooking something" is brought up many times, I think is the Fuyuki Grail War and the Prologue. Not Solomon's wish, but probably it has to do with Marisbury's. Solomon saw the incineration after his wish, but wouldn't that be after Marisbury's wish too? Flaurous' bomb affected Chaldea control room but he primary targeted the Team A (the Crypters, part 2 enemies) and Olgamarie. He placed the bomb under them before he even went to do his incineration ritual. This wasn't ordered by Goetia, Goetia didn't care about Chaldea.

Not to mention that Nasu thinks Goetia isn't bad, just misguided in his attempt to save humanity "because he truly loves them", unlike the Lion King whom Nasu describes as completely wrong and isn't thinking on humanity at all. Goetia came to this conclusion as the only way to save humanity, which was wrong and misguided, but he was attempting to protect them in his own stupid way.

Olga is likely a villain after Lostroom portrayed her as selfish, not caring about humanity just herself, even harboring murderous thoughts toward Ritsuka. She maybe the miko and will lose it in her grudge once she recover her self and sees how Gordolf is/has everything she wanted to be but was not. Key difference is that Gordolf yearns for love while Olga wants praise.

"Villain" is a strong word, maybe her dad, but antagonist definitely.

OT but imagine having all that knowledge and still concluding humanity's problems stemmed from death and only death. No Goetia, you useless dumbass, some people are just assholes who don't care if they hurt other people.

The ending for the Goetia arc was disappointing for this reason, like oh... the villain's just really dumb? This is what everything has been leading up to? Okay, I guess...

Goetia didn't understand humanity, that's why he's the beast of pity. His love twisted into condescension. The opposite of Roman who understood and respected humanity's will to choose their own future. Roman/Solomon never condescended humanity, never saw them as his entertainment like some other kings, or as some source of weird amusement, their ego, his children, his subjects to save. He addressed humanity as actual adults and equals who can make their own choices and control their own future without glossing over their shortcomings. He could guide sometimes, he could help, but he was always mindful and respectful of what they decided. They are meant to be foils. Mash was arbitrating between their opposite views and sided with Roman.

Goetia also probably couldn't cope with Solomon's death and had issues with attachment in general if he watched or interacted with humans. He was very vulnerable and seeking validation even at his peak of power. When he understood humanity and became human at last, it was too late. He was supposed to rule humans and help them evolve but didn't know how to help them because he was bombarded with all the history and focused only on the tragedy. He concluded to avoid humanity self-destruction, he simply had to start over and erase "death" flaw they had. In conclusion, what Solomon told him he wouldn't do when he bitched at him to change humanity and save them: "The King regulates, God is who judges." Goetia wanted to be God. Solomon, his other self and his king, when he finally got a wish and freedom, only wished to be a person.

That's the ending of FGO part 1, the two sides of a legend butting heads. One who wants to be God, one who simply wanted to be a man. Another conflict of the Age of Gods vs the Age of Men who ends with Roman's decision. Goetia's not "dumb", he knows some people are assholes. He addresses that in his monologues, but he was trying to both seek a solution for all humanity's problems in general while ignoring his own coping mechanism and issues. He fed on lamentations and turned against his duty. But unlike the majority of Nasu's villains, he had an epiphany in the end and changed. This is consistent with his narration of Cosmos in the Lostbelt preview trailer, he encourages humanity's hopeless future battle. One he knew was coming. One Galahad betrayed Chaldea and abandoned them, angry because we stopped Goetia's plan and this was the consequence for it.

Goetia admitted his wrong, but Galahad is now against Chaldea and thinks Goetia was right.

more like galabad

I'd be annoyed that you spoiled me but tbh I'd have been more annoyed if I'd had to experience "Galahad is an idiot as well" blind.

Anyway. You sure did write a lot of words only to fail to refute basic facets of human suffering like "people don't rape because they're afraid of death" "people don't torture people for fun because they're afraid of death" "people don't subjugate people because they're afraid of death" and such.

If it hadn't meant the incineration of humanity, I would have been all for Goetia's little ant farm project. Like, go on buddy, let's see how your infallible plan goes. What's that, you say? Humans are still raping? There are still slaves? Wars are still being fought only instead of people dying, they're just enslaved en masse, like some sort of sick competition to see who can collect the most?

Well gosh. Who could have possibly seen that coming. Surely not an all-seeing collection of demons who for some reason only ever focused on the suffering derived from death and none of the death-free suffering. That would just be silly.

Galahad being an idiot is in Moonlight Lostroom. You can watch it now. Chaldea is doing a lot of bad shit without and look pretty damn lost about their own moral compass. So it's not just Galahad who acts in a reproachable manner, everybody is getting their hands dirty.

You're missing the kind of humans Goetia envisioned, they are all in Mash's dream. Always smiling happy no matter what, unable to experience "growth" because everything about them would be decided on birth (by Goetia, one might assume). All the hive bitching and moaning about Solomon conceals the truth that the humans they wanted to make were basically like Solomon was (an existence finished from birth) but without death. The real irony was that as soon as Solomon got agency he wished himself out of that state. And it's funny you mention and list all that, Lostbelt 3 is a lostbelt that answers your questions and Mash, before learning its darker side, sees it as close to the realization of Goetia's ideal world.

Goetia was just driven insane, he couldn't cope with his duty, he was drowning in loss and sorrow. Google the way the pillar demons look underneath their skin, they are made of human suffering and they made that to themselves after Solomon died. They are confirmed to look completely different as long as he lived. They became unrecognizable. He couldn't fill Solomon's shoes. He was obviously flawed but is completely realistic to be driven to that breaking point because he's unable to cope loss and feelings he doesn't even understand he had, while he's expected to help humanity but doesn't know where to start. His only meaningful human contact, Solomon, was more a machine than a person too. He fabricated his own version of Solomon which showed he didn't just don't get humanity but also misunderstood the single human who was literally the closest to him to the point they used to be one.

However, Goetia understands and changes. That's not something Nasu most villains manage to do. Most are still trapped in their vices, drowning in their petty schemes and flaws. Goetia is one of the few ones who was allowed to grow out it.

Cosmos in the Lostbelts PV:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k2IVTcQv6A
There are a few translation mistakes, but you'll get the gist of part 2 of the plot (Epic of Remnants is a year of filler and set up with Shimosa as bridging chapter). Chaldea is going around destroying billions of lives now, rather than fixing things.

except he didn’t see what goetia was going to do - it was only when he gave up his body that he saw the incineration was going to happen right before he lost his clairvoyance. he suspected that he was somehow the cause, but he didn’t have any idea. when solomon appeared in london, he was completely shocked and was completely sure that it couldn’t be the real solomon. i don’t think he realized it was goetia possessing his body until the end, or that the demon pillars were his familiars at first (he says that solomon’s familiars weren’t ugly things like the demon pillars are).

he also had no idea that his familiars were upset about the perceived suffering of humanity and how goetia hated him doing nothing about it, and solomon was described as being rather emotionless - basically a cog in the god-machine to keep it running. he’s indirectly responsible and the servants can pick up on it since it was said in a interview or in a extra material book that the reasons why a lot of them give him a hard time is because they’re able to sort of sense “i don’t know what’s going on but he’s at fault” when they look at him.

his profile. it's stated in his profile.

In his profile and material, except the ones who know what's coming on, or have a greater insight, different values, ME, are human, etc.

what

where did you get all that nonsense

Their ass.

To be held accountable, you need agency and freedom of choice. Solomon was just a machine and tool for humanity and God's wishes who only ever did what they wanted unable to even get angry about this lack of freedom. He only developed this when he was summoned as a Servant, and he was still obviously inexperienced. Goetia is a result of that just like everything he did. All Humanity's Evils including Solomon (Goetia was him too) are made by humanity. Good job in missing the point they are part of the system humanity chose by itself and programmed self-destruction disasters even when they are unequipped to become like this, fate finds a way. None of the Beasts are external enemies, they are all result of Humanity doing some shit. Goetia as driven insane by humanity's suffering and own inability to cope with our own shit. That's why they are called Humanity's Bestial nature.

And Goetia was a 3000 years old being who, unlike Solomon, had agency and chose wrong. Why are you even pushing the blame on Solomon when he was a fellow system with one job: rule and make humanity evolve just as Solomon did before him. One job he fucked up and threw away for the sake of his angst. Are you seriously going to blame Solomon for what Goetia chose? Why not blame David for siring Solomon? Or David's father and so on?

Ok. Solomon, the Heroic Spirit, didn't know Goetia was going to do that. The vision of the incineration only appeared after he and his Master made their wishes. There's more to read in that but just wait for part two to reveal itself, and has to do with Animuspheres. "Solomon the King of Magecraft" is a system and mechanism to evolve humanity properly, it was necessary, just like Tiamat was necessary. A position that the Crypters desire for themselves, well, in theory, just their blondie leader does: the one who leads humanity's evolution. A job Goetia ignored because he was wrapped in his megalomania plan, he didn't want to be humanity's king, he wanted to be their new God the Maker. All the Beasts were all necessary part of humanity system until something derails them, or their overstayed their function and became cancerous cells instead, but this was caused by the own system function (so humanity, not just by their choices either, they are picked for this on top of having their choices).

Solomon the Heroic Spirit is divorced of this after he died, but still had the only measure to stop himself, and the moral ground to counter Goetia, because for all Goetia pitied, Solomon (now as human) loved and trusted humanity like no other ruler in Fate ever did, because he saw humans as fellow adults capable of making their own choices without needing input or him saying "I know better."

he didn't give up his original body, he kind of died 3000 years ago.

it’s also kind of unfair to say that it is his fault although he was indirectly responsible by giving up his original body which set it up for someone else to move in.

ok just pointing out the same as another anon. solomon didn't give up shit, he died. and, after he died, goetia used his body as a vessel (he was bodiless before anyway). it's like kingu and enkidu, kingu wasn't separate from enkidu, it's a new mind/soul in that body. this has absolutely nothing to do with solomon, as a servant (who is a materialized heroic spirit), making a wish in Fuyuki. he was already dead. the same thing would have happened if solomon hadn't been summoned to fuyuki. what stops this operation is lev killing himself in 2015 before he turns into a demon. for some reason we don't know yet, this suicide doesn't happen. but this plan exists even without solomon summoned as servant.

MAYBE if he hadn't DIED

what a jerk

hi, goetia.

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WHAT ANIME

^^^^^ BIG PART ONE SPOILERS ^^^^^

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spoilers clocktower 2015 + and potential cosmos in the lostbelt

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cosmos in the lostbelt spoilers

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