rpanons | Don't bother

Don't bother

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i feel like the nepotism thing is at least 80% of why law schools still exist. firms wanna hire people from the schools they went to. goddamn i envy you on the journal front, though -- do you find that extracurriculars and the extra clinics helped you in your job search at all?

also, how are you at presenting? everything i've seen from litigation has been like 90% showmanship, with less focus on substance, and i'm wondering if you have any legal-field-specific tips for that.

I never understood it. A lot of the career services was like "email former students and ask them to give you good word of mouth" and it just creeps me out because why would a fellow student from X school give me word of mouth based on the fact that I went to the same school without even knowing me?

The clinics were invaluable - because of them, I had actual skills to put down on my resume, and in my non-profit interviews had not only passion but pretty in-depth knowledge of the subjects. I didn't really have time for other extracurriculars, but that was largely because I was so involved with my clinics.

I'm terrible at presenting, actually! I get horrible stage fright and have a stammer. I'm really good one-on-one with clients, but that's more about working through their problems than it is about selling anything. My litigation experience has actually been 100% writing, research, editing, strategizing and compiling - drafting briefs and motions, writing up memos of legal issues, that kind of stuff. My supervisor, who was a great public speaker, did most of the appearances in front of the judge.

I did, however, have to present for a few domestic violence and civil commitment cases in court, and the only tip I can really give there is that you should be extremely aware of the culture of whatever court you're going to. If you're in an uptight federal court where everyone's in a tailored suit and addresses the judge as 'your honor' after every sentence, you need to try and fit in with that as well as possible or the judge will come out the gate scrutinizing you. If you're in an in-house commitment proceeding where the judge is wearing business casual and wants to get everything done as quickly as possible, be ready to boil your points down to bullet points.

Sounds like you have a more difficult journal than me? I hope you're at least learning more, all I got out of mine was, when interviewing new hires for the next year, a few anecdotes from a guy who "wanted the journal to have a more distinct voice, like Jack Kerouac or Allen Ginsberg."

that is the weirdest advice i've heard yet. what i've mostly been getting is "ask lawyers out for coffee and talk to them about the profession so that you can ask them for a summer position later in the line." it's a profession of the most bizarrely outgoing set of introverts that i've ever seen.

did you work every summer? i'm surprised ny firms discriminated against you that way -- i realise it's a caucasian hierarchy in the field still, but they've diversity-specific internships, i thought they'd put up more for a pretense.

wait, did your journal have blank applications and then interviews?

... applications. i absolutely understand that you're probably the only one who turned in an actual blank one.

It really is. I guess what people are looking for is proactivity, but it's a real hurdle for people who just aren't good at putting themselves out there. Looking back I should have reached out more towards other lawyers, and I really let my shyness get the better of me. I've heard the coffee date advice too, and I really didn't take advantage of that, which I think hurt me.

I did work every summer! My first year I got an internship with a federal court of appeals, which was excellent. My second summer I worked in an NYC non-profit. To be honest, in my firm interviews I was surprised by the level of sexism and homophobia - I got asked at least three illegal questions. My ethnic minority classmates all noted a trend that while they got taken on for diversity internships, they had a lot more difficulty locking down a fulltime job afterwards. Most of my black classmates had grievances about being 'cut loose' after their summer internships, so it's more pretense than reality, it seems. ):

To get on the journal you had an application, and then an interview to get on the board the next year. I interviewed for the board and joined on even though my job didn't expand that much ("Journal Social Chair" = pizza girl, honestly, with a few emails to remind the citecheckers to check their work better). Honestly, it's a miracle our journal even gets funded, for a while we were working out a janitorial closet because someone stole our cubicle walls and desk. We pretty much were the least choosy journal ever because not enough people ever applied for us to be picky - we're a bit of a fringe political journal.

i feel like i'm pumping you at this point, but! you've been so informative and the experience at a completely different school's just fascinating to me and the tips you've given have been really -- i just found half my autumn schoolbooks on BigWords for a total of $100, holy shit.

last question: do you have any tips for interviews? orrr working in an office that takes on a lot of dv/sexual violence appeals?

No worries at all, I love to talk to fellow students! :) Awesome that you were able to find your books for cheap, too! I'm curious as to what school you went to, but obviously you don't have to answer that. I went to NYU.

Alas, I have pretty much no interview tips. I've yet to really find a method that works for me. I do have a lot of experience working with DV/sexual abuse survivors, though, so I guess the important thing there to keep in mind is that people are coming to you on one of the worst days of their lives, talking about some of their worst experiences, and they're scared and angry, and you absolutely can't let it affect you that you might be on your fifth case of the day. You have to numb yourself a bit to handle all the tragedy, but you still have to engage with your client with as much energy and compassion as you did on your first case, because they're taking a huge step just by reaching out for help.

If you can, always leave yourself extra time with an abused client during intake or depositions so they can talk about what happened to them at their own pace. Rushing an abuse survivor is a quick way to miss details and get them to clam up, and since a lot of survivors don't realize the extent of their abuse or the most important things from the legal perspective, so they might leave out important information.

If you have a difficult client who's yelling at or lying to you, just take a step back and remember that they're probably not angry at you so much as the situation. Is it fair for them to take it out on you? Heck no. But it's also usually not a reflection on you, so don't take it personally. Also, don't take it personally if your client stops showing up, returns to their abuser, or requests a different lawyer. Whatever their life story is at the time, they have to do what they feel is best for them, and usually our job is to support them rather than direct them.

Also, be prepared to pester law enforcers over and over and over again. Some immigration materials, like T-visas, require police certification of a reported crime, and it pays to butter them up a bit. Others, like asylum applications if your client has a conviction, might just require you having to get ahold of multiple copies of arrest warrants and the like, and giving out paperwork to immigration advocates is pretty much the bottom of most law enforcers' priorities. You might have to call five or six times to get them to fax something.

Finally, self-care. I know it's cheesy, but when you're dealing with emotionally taxing material day in and day out you need to give yourself permission to take a five minute break sometimes, or watch a cat video, or get yourself an ice cream. Go easy on yourself. Hold onto that feeling that you're doing something good and focus on the small victories instead of the overwhelming injustice. This line of work has such an intense turnover that it's important to keep your spirits up.

i wouldn't mind answering, but i feel a little odd basically deanoning... this is a weird request, so feel free to skip out on this thread, but do you have a plurk or anything? i've very few people to talk to about law stuff and if you're interested in chatting about it as you do your bar review, i'd love to keep in touch and maybe wax nostalgic about the age-old era (a month ago) when i was still doing crim law.

Sure, anon, I'm

hotpinkcoffee. :) I would love to talk about law stuff! I have a few other law students on my timeline too so idk maybe we could have a water cooler plurk or something.

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