rpanonmod ([personal profile] rpanonmod) wrote in [community profile] rpanons2012-02-22 10:08 pm

Everything is under control

Rundown: [community profile] rpanons is an anonymous community for role-play related topics. This place serves as a forum for game discussions, canon discussions, RP solicitations (ATP, game ads, open memes), and advice. The occasional off topic comment is inevitable, but please keep heated social and political topics to their respective communities. Posting them here will only get them frozen. Subsequent threads made to bypass a freeze will then be deleted.


Temporary Change: To reduce the strain on Dreamwidth's servers new entries will go up when a post reaches 3,000. Please refrain from spamming so we can stretch these entries for a little longer. We don't need several threads soliciting photo evidence of body parts, and we already know that we only care about yaoi. Failure to comply will only result in deletions and butthurt. "People may notice site slowdown/cache error pages. We're working on fixing. You can help: finish posts at 3k comments, not 5k or more." - Dreamwidth@Twitter

Rules:

Do not post pornographic or shocking images.
Do not share private entries, plurks, chat logs, etc.
Do not use this community as your social/political/hatespeech soapbox.


Concerns?


Navigate:

Hey! Do not post anything outside of these threads. It will be deleted.
Go be cute and fun and fun and funny over here.

LATEST PAGE | GAME DISCUSSIONS | CANON DISCUSSIONS | HTML/GRAPHIC HELP

OPEN MEMES | ATP/ENABLE ME | GAME ADVERTISEMENTS | PB SUGGESTIONS

USERNAME SUGGESTIONS | GAME IDEAS | CHARACTER ADVICE | RP WITH ME

DA

(Anonymous) 2012-03-02 01:13 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm going to disagree on the above interpretation of Nightwing: Year One, but I can definitely see how it can be see as him being a thug. Personally, I took it more as Jason's overeager bravado at trying to prove he deserved to be Robin and him falling back on what he's familiar with in a situation that went very off script (six months of Robin training wouldn't train out his street smart instincts either). It also shows Batman's less than likable traits as a mentor and father figure toward Jason which is important considering everything that happens with Jason and how his relationship with Bruce influences everything in his life. It's not nearly as bad as some of the other flashbacks of him, but it does show some of Jason's less likable traits as an early Robin. He was 13, not perfect.

Also, you really should read Batman Annual #12, it's got a pretty important Jason story in it about his school life and his training as Robin (and it along with NYO also show that Jason was every bit as good performance-wise as the other Robins despite constantly being bad mouthed in canon). There's also The New Teen Titans v1 #19-30, as it shows that Jason was indeed a Teen Titan for a while (and one of the few brotherly scenes between Jason and Dick is in there), and Teen Titans v3 #29 because that's some what he was up to in between the two mini-arcs of Under the Hood--and actually part of it relates back to The New Teen Titans arc.

Before reading Under the Hood, you really should read the Hush Arc (Batman #608-619). There isn't a whole lot of Jason in this arc until toward the end and some of it is kind of twisted and confusing, but it's kind of important in regards to Batman's feelings about Jason and Lost Days and Batman Annual #25, which are basically Jason's post-resurrection/pre-Red Hood backstory issues. It is also the first hint of Jason returning to DC that you get. As for Countdown, I would also say read The Search for Ray Palmer side issues, particularly Gotham by Gaslight.

The issues in Batman and Robin are important, depending on what canon point you want to take him from. The first arc (end of #3 through #6) is in many ways one of the worst portrayals of Jason ever (it's right up there with Battle for the Cowl, yet at least that can be explained in some twisted way). But it was written by Morrison, so just expect BAD going in (only thing he got right was that Jason isn't against sidekicks at all--despite some people arguing he hates them). Jason's relationship with Scarlet is important to the next arc he's in (#23-25) and despite having to go along with SOME of the things from Morrison's arc for continuity's sake, those issues were written by Winick, which is guaranteed amazing Jason characterization. So even if you don't take him from that point, read it just for how well Winick always handles Jason as Red Hood. To be honest, some of my most favorite Red Hood quotes are from those issues. Unfortunately those issues are left feeling open-ended and unfinished, but Flashpoint and then Reboot happened.

Re: DA

(Anonymous) 2012-03-02 04:55 pm (UTC)(link)
I think "kidnapping a child and tying him to a chair" goes a bit further than "unlikeable". It completely cuts out some of the most important parts of that dynamic, I feel - Jason making Bruce laugh in Crime Alley, Jason proving himself to have a conscience in his own right, Bruce choosing him as Robin because he helped him. Bruce fucked up with Jason at times and that's important too, but - it's all the more significant because of the good things.

I don't want to come off as saying Jason was a perfect kid, far from it. But I think NYO went way too far in the other direction. Dick said he thought he would have ended up working for the Joker, ffs. There's a difference between relying on street smarts, on being naturally reckless and headstrong, and completely disregarding innocent lives and glorifying in brutality. Originally, Jason had such anger issues in part because he cared so much about the victims.

OP can decide for themselves, though, obviously there are wildly differing opinions on this!

I don't think the first Batman and Robin issues are quite as bad as BFTC, personally, they're just...weird. The second arc is just kind of pointless.

ayrt

(Anonymous) 2012-03-03 12:15 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh I agree. I had that same problem with NYO, but as I said I don't think it's nearly as bad as some of other flashbacks about Jason out there. It's by no means the best rewrite of Jason's coming into Robinhood. I do have problems with it, but I also do not take everything every character says at face value. I disagree on NYO because what Dick feels/thinks I do not take as being what an omniscient narrator would think or what the audience should think. What characters believe is one thing, but the fact Jason cared so much about Alfred and proving himself to Batman in the first place kind of undermines some of Dick's opinions. Dick also doesn't know what Jason has gone through the last few months and is a bit bitter and jealous while he's thinking those things.

I think you may be mis-remembering something in NYO because never does Jason revel in hurting anyone or endanger any innocents. In fact, he is the one who actually yells at Dick for being reckless on the train, not being serious enough about going to rescue Alfred and tells him it isn't a game anymore. So while I agree his relationship with Bruce really took a hit from NYO (and I really dislike the retconning of the Ma Gunn arc), Jason himself did not act in the way you're describing him at all. If your dislike of NYO has to do with Jason being violent, reckless, and glorifying him brutally hurting people...he doesn't do that. I just reread it and that does not happen. He's no more brutal or vicious than your average Robin kicking bad guy ass and there were NO innocents endangered at all, unless you count Alfred who was in danger to begin with. The worst he did was steal a car from a bunch of criminals so he could drive Alfred home. And we knew beforehand about Jason and cars. Which is why I believe that what Dick thinks is very much not what we should be taking from that because Dick is not a reliable narrator and that Dick's original reactions to Jason were biased based on his feelings of being replaced, not on some objective view of Jason's potential as a Robin.

I read the scene where Dick actually thinks "Maybe he got him before the Joker could hire him" and raised an eyebrow because it was kind of over the top in comparison to Jason's behavior (which was full of bravado and talking smack, but nowhere near evil or reckless enough to warrant saying that). So for me, it was actually more showing of Dick being jealous of Jason and thinking something offhandedly cruel and baseless than because Jason really was violent and messed up enough that he could have worked for the Joker.

My main issues with the first set of Batman and Robin issues is that it blatantly rewrites even more of Jason's relationship with Bruce in a dark and messed up way and adds elements that no one else had in all this time since Crisis. NYO was bad in making Batman looking like a creepy child-kidnapper, but the B&R issues turn around and make him a child-kidnapper who forces the kid to look like the other kid he ditched/replaced on purpose. It left a really bad taste in my mouth. So someone else may not have as much of a problem with it as I did, but yes, I can agree it was not nearly as bad as BFTC. At the same time, at least "Jason having a breakdown and separation from reality" can make some kind of twisted sense considering the topic of BFTC, whereas I still cannot figure out half of the reasons for the changes to Jason in those issues of B&R. (I won't even get into the art because it makes me cringe).

And now I realize this is a whole lot of tl;dr and I really apologize. I tend to ramble on topics like this.

Re: ayrt

(Anonymous) 2012-03-03 02:52 pm (UTC)(link)
I don't know that we're meant to disagree with Dick, though - to me he isn't presented as wrong, as biased. But that might just be my reading of it.

I was talking about the training simulation, where Bruce lectures Jason for not considering the civilians. You could read it as him not caring because, well, simulation - but to me that's not how it came across. You're right, though, looking back Jason really isn't that bad in this. I'm probably conflating it with other stuff Dixon has written with him.

The red hair thing doesn't even make sense, since Jason had black hair when he met Bruce. It's not true in the context of Pre-Crisis Jay, either - they dye was his idea. I just - do not understand it at all. I can deal with the rest, more or less, if Jason is just being an epic troll the whole time. Maybe he was trolling about the hair shit too. Really he died it red so Dick would notice him.

Oh, it's fine! I tend to ramble a bit myself.